I get Arch's whole minimalist thing, I really do. But not even providing man-db in Base? C'mon people. That's just absurd.


@sullybiker holy shit base is so absurd: archlinux.org/packages/core/an

i mean, i understand that the entire point of base is purely to provide the necessary utilities to install more packages and you're not supposed to actually be using it to do anything else, but you'd think being at least equivalent in utilities to a heavily gutted busybox compile.

@nytpu I'm glad it's not just me. I'm helping someone whom I recommended it to and I'm having 2nd thoughts. A lot of this is just silly.

@sullybiker the kernel itself is an optional dependency for installing arch wtf

@nytpu Correction manpages are there but no tool to read them lmao

@nytpu There is a reason for that being the case though. It is an optional dependency since maybe you would want to use another kernel to install arch (like linux-zen or whatever).

As I remember they made that desicion to allow more freedom for the end-user when they install arch.

@nytpu In fairness the docs do say you may need other packages, but no manpages? No dhcp client? GIve me a fucking break.

@sullybiker @nytpu You don't want manpages or the man tool in your container that you won't ever ssh into. I'm assuming this is the usecase.

@clacke @nytpu Yeah, I get that, but it's actually a bit of a gotcha. At least Gentoo cover this sort of thing in their docs.

@clacke @nytpu They do provide container images where that would be appropriate.

@sullybiker @clacke all install directions tell you to also install base-devel, but the thing is that it doesn't include man-db either! maybe they should also recommend posix just so you at least have a stable posix base even if you do want to stay minimal.

@sullybiker @nytpu Maybe they should have packages named like "bare", "cli-base" and "desktop-base" to be clearer.

(maybe they do, I don't know Arch)

@clacke @nytpu They used to be very thorough in their docs but the install guide has got very loose.

@clacke @nytpu It switched from a comprehensive guide to a slimmed down skeletal tree, preferring to hand off to the relevant wki sections. This is logical, but those pages are not always written with learning in mind.

@clacke @nytpu I'm willing to accept I am not as patient as I used to be, but the BSDs and Slackware have spoilt me a little bit.

@sullybiker @nytpu I quickly[0]‌ ran arch in a container to check if man or man-db have any reverse dependencies. They don't! Can that be true? So if you install a whole Gnome desktop, you still can't assume that man will be there?

# pacman -Qi man-db
Name            : man-db
Version         : 2.9.4-1
Description     : A utility for reading man pages
Architecture    : x86_64
URL             : https://www.nongnu.org/man-db/
Licenses        : GPL  LGPL
Groups          : None
Provides        : man
Depends On      : bash  gdbm  zlib  groff  libpipeline  less  libseccomp
Optional Deps   : gzip [installed]
Required By     : None
Optional For    : None
Conflicts With  : man
Replaces        : man
Installed Size  : 2.26 MiB
Packager        : Andreas Radke <andyrtr@archlinux.org>
Build Date      : Tue 09 Feb 2021 06:36:13 AM UTC
Install Date    : Tue 23 Feb 2021 05:44:16 AM UTC
Install Reason  : Explicitly installed
Install Script  : Yes
Validated By    : Signature

[0]‌ Apart from running into a glibc bug (is there a kernel interface missing?) and picking an image from last year to run instead. bugs.archlinux.org/task/69563

@clacke @nytpu Nope. You can check the depends for man-db. Only a small number of packages pull it down.

@sullybiker @nytpu Why is that Required-By different from the pacman -Qi‌ Required-By?

So it seems the "cli-base" package that makes things pleasant to interact with is the "posix" package.

@clacke @nytpu I think it's a mistake. The localised man pages require it, but not the English language ones. That seems broken to me.

@clacke @sullybiker pacman is not aware of package groups unless you explicitly look at them (pacman -Si posix), and no “real” packages require it, so it looks empty.

@nytpu @sullybiker Aha, so that's why the difference. Thank you for the explanation!

@clacke @nytpu When you go for a full caffeine DE that seems remiss to me.

@sullybiker @nytpu Yeah. Plasma though has a path plasma-meta -> plasma-vault -> gocryptfs -> man-db, but that seems more accidental that intentional. Why does an overlay filesystem require manpages?
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